Love and Lies
2011
Yet another story about the Spectacular Asshole.
The other day during the latest in our series of pre-relationship negotiations, the Spectacular Asshole and I got to talking about information sharing. We talked about what information we should be voluntarily sharing with one another, what info we don’t have to volunteer but should be truthful about if asked, and what information we need never share because it is not really relevant to what is going on between us. We got really granular and by the end of the discussion we had laid out a roadmap to make sure each of us is crystal clear on the other’s expectations.
Lord if the two of us ever used our powers for good can you imagine what damage we could do?
What was interesting about this discussion is that we learned that we have very different ideas about the role of honesty in relationships. Or pre-relationships in our case. And what was even more interesting is that he is a way bigger advocate for full disclosure than I am.
I’m attempting to not disclose every detail of my budding relationship with you guys, but I’m going to give you just one example. We talked about the phenomenon of us getting our respective swerves on in these early days and whether we should a)be forthright about sharing this information b)freely disclose it when asked or c)feel free to evade, obfuscate, or outright lie about it because it’s not the other person’s business. And since it just so happened that we had this conversation a couple of nights after I’d been out at a male friend’s house until 6 in the morning, we used that as an example. I said – so if the reason I was out until 6 o’clock is that I was fucking, am I supposed to tell you that? I said this incredulously because the notion was patently ridiculous. And do you know what he said? He said of course. He said of course!
In his mind, since we are not in an exclusive relationship, there is no reason for me not to volunteer this type of information. And that to hide it or lie about it would be disrespectful to him. But in my mind it’s the opposite. I look at it like this: although we are not in an exclusive relationship, we are on a path to…something. I don’t know what yet. And even though we’re not sleeping together and are each well aware that the other has the right to sleep with other people, each of us is going to feel some kind of way about knowing the details. And because I don’t want him to feel that way, I leave him with the theoretical knowledge that I’m getting my parts oiled and spare him the details. Long story short, because I care about him I will lie to him. And because he cares about me he will tell me the truth.
Put a pin in that for a second while I tell you another story.
The last relationship I was in was an open one. And there was probably never a moment during it when my guy did not have at least one other quasi-relationship going on the side. He wasn’t necessarily always forthcoming about them, but he was always honest with me. Conversely, he was always, always dishonest with the side-pieces about me. No matter what they said, accused, or asked, he never told them the truth about me and him and instead would brush off the questions by reminding him that they didn’t have the type of relationship that afforded them the right to be up in his business like that.
What I always wondered then and still wonder now is which of us did my guy respect more? Me to whom he told the truth no matter how it might make me feel, or the side heaux who never knew the truth but never had to feel the pain that sometimes comes with it. Did he tell me the truth because he respected me or did he tell me the truth because he didn’t care enough to spare my feelings? And what’s more – did he lie about me because our relationship was too important to be shared with jump-offs? And was he honest with me about the side bitches because he respected them too much to hide their presence in his life?
These are the kinds of things I ask myself all the time and never come up with a final answer.
There are a lot of reasons why we may lie to the one we love. Sometimes we lie to spare ourselves the aggravation of listening to lectures or getting into arguments. Sometimes we lie because we’re afraid our loves will leave us if we tell the truth. Those are shitty and disrespectful reasons to lie as far as I’m concerned. But sometimes we lie to our partners because we want to spare them unnecessary hurt. And is that really such a crime? Does lying to the one we love mean our feelings and regard for them are not strong enough? Or are they so strong that we’ll do anything to protect them – including hiding the truth?
This is one of those rare occasions where I don’t have a strident stance. I’ve been vacillating between the idea that the one you tell the truth to is the one you respect and the idea that if you care about someone you’ll lie to protect their feelings for years and have never come to a firm conclusion.
So I put it out to you my dear readers. How do you feel about love and lies? Is honesty always the best policy or is there ever a good reason to lie to the one you love? Should I be informing Mr. SA every time I get my back blown out if that’s what he wants or am I allowed to keep my private life private? Speak on it in the comments.
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I honestly can’t think of any successful entity that is was built on the 100% truth. I’m hesitant to use the word so much in this discussion because it feels like it’s being framed as ‘truth=good’ and ‘non-truth=bad’. A lot of the times we hide the truth because we simply don’t want to deal with the annoyances that come with it and somethings are just our own damn business.
A caveat: The open relationship guy probably didn’t want to hear a lot complaining to otherwise mess up his good situation. I don’t think it had anything to do with protecting feelings, just protecting himself from migraines.
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Funny thing about that dude though is that he spent so much time arguing with these broads about why he refused to answer their questions. It’s not like avoiding the truth spared him headaches so I really don’t know why he bothered. That’s men for you though.
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max i am a BIG advocate of truth telling… i mean in all honesty the reason for
allmost lies is selfishness whether it is your claim to spare someone else’s feelings or is it just the fact that you don’t want to deal with the possible fall out that may occur? the only way it’s not selfish is when the person requests the lie.. i.e. i don’t care what you do, just don’t tell me about it. then they follow up with hey i called you 6 times yesterday because i won free concert tickets where were you? then you lie, because you care and because that is what they want. but you lying because you want to especially when they have requested truth is wrong in my eyes.as for you and SA i believe that there are many ways to be honest even in your situation and lying when asked a direct question is just that lying. many people have don’t ask don’t tell policies, maybe you guys can do that. or maybe just a quick answer not the down and dirty details, but if he asks oh max where were you night before last? tell the truth
i hope this made sense, its late and i had one of those work days, i’ll be back in the morning to tighten this response up if needed.
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What we agreed is that he won’t tell me details because I don’t want to know and I am supposed to tell him details because he does want to know.
I know you see the operative word in that sentence.
I hear what you’re saying about honesty and all that but I can’t help feeling that this is a trap somehow. I don’t see how any good can come out of him asking me what I did last night and me saying “Oh I just got my back blown out by ___. It was fun.”
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I hear what you’re saying about honesty and all that but I can’t help feeling that this is a trap somehow. I don’t see how any good can come out of him asking me what I did last night and me saying “Oh I just got my back blown out by ___. It was fun.”
I Agree!!
Don’t Do It Girlllllll
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well max you surely don’t have to say it like that…out with a friend/spent the night with a friend etc… he knows what time it is!! as for it being a trap.. then he truly wasn’t the man for you… thats just shady and immature and a serious abuse of the purity of honesty… hmpf
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Well, as far as trapping people… I do it ALL THE TIME… It is fun… I just don’t judge
I think any woman who deal with a Spectacular As$hole has gotten the “You need to quit him”, “then he truly wasn’t the man for you” advice…
It falls on deaf ears…
The postives outweigh the negative on people, so until he become a TRUE liability… He won’t get quitted on
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I smell a trap! LOL
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Off-topic, I’m going to write you back Yoles. I’ve just been writing papers and devising devilish plans all week.
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no problem… thx Malik
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“Did he tell me the truth because he respected me or did he tell me the truth because he didn’t care enough to spare my feeling”
He might have told you out of respect if it was a one-time thing, but seeing as they were several occasions, he maybe, didn’t care enough about your feelings or he thought you could handle the truth. But I’m more on he didn’t care.
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Well jeez Renè tell me how you really feel! Don’t sugarcoat it to spare my feelings or anything LMAO.
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No it’s nothing of that sort. You’re reading my message wrong, there’s no iota of malice in it.
You’ve seen the movie ‘Baby boy’? I was only going with the analysis made by Tyrese in that scene with him and his girlfriend arguing.
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Wow.
Um…I don’t know. This is why I can’t handle these situations…so many questions. I guess you respect his wishes or like Yoles (and you) said, ya’ll make your own agreed upon rules.
I’m a huge fan of honesty, but some things are none of people’s business and some things are just hurtful to say.
Ya’ll seem to be on the right track though, I mean you’re having the conversations. Lots of couples don’t even get that far.
Am I the only one that’s a lil jittery that Max is using the “r” word?!? Scary/exciting!
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I know right? Every time I say it I start to twitch a little bit.
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I don’t feel like reading again… what is the “R” word
Ratchet…?
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Relationship.
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Jeez max that was a mindfuck. =I
I’d offer some input but I really don’t have enough depth with relationships to offer anything meaningful. Good complex read though.
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this is a great post.
in my last pseudo-relationship, he made it explicitly known that he wanted to know NOTHING. i wasn’t even sleeping with anyone else, but he was very adamant about not wanting to know anything about any other man, and he never ever asked questions that could possibly yield an answer he thought he couldn’t deal with. i on the other had, asked tons of questions, and he was usually honest. if we aren’t exclusive, i assume he’s dating other people anyhow, so i’m usually a proponent for honesty. and surprisingly, it doesn’t bother me as much as my mind making up things and filling in the blanks itself, when someone refuses to tell me something. i think it’s the writer in me. lol.
the question remains are you actually going to tell him the truth? i see in your response to Yoles you said you’re supposed to, but i’m kind of with you, unless he cares zero about you, a male’s ego is pretty fragile, regardless of what they say. i’ve had too many men (brothers, friends, interests) tell me that they’ve learned not to ask certain questions so… unless SA is an anomaly… all those “details” will probably bother him eventually.
because i’m me, i’d probably be honest if he requested it, but there’s always that risk of him using that knowledge to keep you in the gray area between efff buddy and relationship.
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“but there’s always that risk of him using that knowledge to keep you in the gray area between efff buddy and relationship.”
*Leyomi drops for Muze living in my head*
Additionally, I feel like it could only be a sore if you do ever start a rela’ship.
One other note, knowing that other men want to blow your back out could prompt him make it exclusive faster… there are such a bunch of unknowns in this situation and no math function I can write will give us an answer.
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“surprisingly, it doesn’t bother me as much as my mind making up things and filling in the blanks itself, when someone refuses to tell me something.” <–Me ALLLLL day!!
If I were blindly reading this sentence, I'd say I had written it.
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My apologies in advance for the length of my comment.
For most of my dating life I’ve been relentless, matter of fact and almost brutal with truth telling. Do you know what it brought me? Headaches and accusations of being an asshole or dog or player or some other lame bullsh**. So I learned the hard way that what people consider honesty is not always the best policy. If you want stories I could give you ‘Crimes And Punishment’ or ‘War And Peace’ length stories about shit going wrong all b/c I insist on telling truth or someone insists on honesty.
No longer.
Here’s why: Honesty and the Truth are two separate things. The sooner people realize this the better off they will be. Honesty is a matter of morality, character and is often subjective, while Truth is largely objective and in its highest form is fact based. Example:
Truth: Sheila is wearing a fitted mini skirt.
Honesty: Sheila looks like a hoe in that skirt
Truth: I’ve been boning that chick Sheila from accounting
Honesty:My wife hasn’t given me head in 12 years and I’m feeling neglected and Sheila has the best oral game this side of Superhead. I was tempted, felt alone and gave in.
Getting back to you max, I don’t know what you should do or expect, but I know what I would do: As long as I’m not in a committed relationship, any prospective partner is only entitled to me treating them with respect and being honest about my intentions. In depth details about who or why or when I’ve been greasing waistlines isn’t part of the deal. Disagree? So what, sue me, I don’t care.
One more thing; I’m not encouraging you or anyone to lie. What I’m saying is you set your guidelines and boundaries clearly. At this juncture information only needs to be shared on a need to know basis.
And to me it doesn’t sound like he needs to know, he wants to; and that raises a whole other set of issues that I don’t have the time or space to discuss.
Happy F*cking!
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RE: the 1st story: Personally, in budding romance or new love situations like that I just let it be known that I’m dating other people and leave it at that. No need to go into greater detail. If the situation w/ her becomes more serious, or if exclusivity is imminent, I’d mention to her that I’m no longer “dating other people” and go into more detail about particular activities in my life. This is not to say that I wouldn’t lie about anything; everyone lies. I just know that, in doing so, there’s no “respect” or “sparing of feelings” in it. I’d be doing it just to avoid an argument, aggravation or a potential split.
RE: “another story”: By telling you the truth, he respected you more.
Sparing feelings is NEVER a sign of respect IMO; between a person being lied to and a person being told the truth, the person being told the truth will always be the person being respected.
I’m an adult with the capacity to deal with trying issues in a mature manner and make sound decisions based on the information provided to me; lying to me is depriving me of making such sound decisions.
If the truth ever came out about something someone has lied to me about, they’re pretty much close to written off as far as I’m concerned. Or, at the very least, they’re dramatically scaled back from my life until apologies & amends are made.
At the end of the day, there is nothing respectful about a polite, feelings-sparing lie. If anything, we’re lying to ourselves about sparing feelings. We’re just tring to avoid an argument, aggravation or a potential split more so than anything else. lol
I’ve typed way too much.
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As for volunteering information, I believe in don’t ask don’t tell. For me it’s really uncomfortable to tell the person you are thinking about having a romantic relationship with that you went Vanessa Del Rio (old school but she taught me how to give GREAT head) on someone else; especially when you aren’t letting them hit.
Someone in the comments said that lying is often selfish and I have to agree. I don’t want to talk about it therefore you don’t get to hear about it. We agreed that we could see other people; let’s assume that to be the case and skip on the details. What is the benefit in knowing in that type of situation? Nothing in my opinion.
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This is a tough one…If it were me, I wouldn’t volunteer information about who I’m chexing because we’re not in a relationship but, if he were to ask me directly I would feel like I have to answer because we’re building something. Whether it’s because of love I don’t know but it only seems right.
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i hate this topic because i hate lying.
while i don’t expect anyone to offer anything up voluntarily, but if i ask a straight up question, i expect a straight up honest answer even if it hurts my feelings. because it’s the absolute worst feeling to know the truth and still be lied to, even if the reasoning behind it is to spare my feelings.
but everyone’s different. i just have a hard time multitasking people.
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If he wants to know tell him. Hopefully he’ll be cool with the truth. If not…
In my old age, girl I ain’t able to focus on two relationships no matter what type they are at a time. One: I’m to lazy to cover my tracks and two: I go at things it with such an intensity, I can’t fraction it. I think my mind would implode. I have to stay on the course I’m on. So I couldn’t handle what you’re doing. SA would would have to hop aboard Danielle ‘s maybe crazy train or wait til I come back around but by that time someone else will probably be on board literally and figuratively since I am a serial monogamer. If we can’t get it together in two months, then in my mind we won’t. Why bother wasting each others time? So back into the friendship slot you go.
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Wait let me be clear about one thing because I think I’m painting a bad picture here.
I’m not multi-tasking or having multiple relationships. I’m having discussions with the SA; that’s it. We’re not sleeping together and I don’t even really think you can say we’re dating. We’re talking. That’s it. So if I were to sleep with someone else, it wouldn’t be me having multiple relationships, it would be me living my single life.
Just want to make that clear before you people starting thinking I’m the whore of Babylon
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Oh no I never thought you were the Whore of Babylon girl. Ok upon further reflection, I’ma say f*ck him and his disclosure policy. There’ll be no transparency here. This is not The Obama Administration. He wants the privilege without the label. You want to know what I’m doing? Well if you were my man I’d tell you better yet I’d be f*cking you so we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Either pull your panties down or get out of the car…
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Well Damn….
*lol*
I like the way you think Mizz Danielle.
*Curtsy*
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i’m still on pause/mute from the 1st time you asked me this question.
and still aint got no answers.
people have to be truth to and about themselves before they can be with another person.
regardless of what it looks like between you two, your relationship must have trust, respect and communication.
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The burden of proof is always on the prosecution.
Max, you know where I stand on this situation.
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I do. And I’m standing right there with you.
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Dr. J need to make people pay for that knowledge yo… But I don’t mind getting it for free!
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I haven’t read all of the comments yet but I see Sam broke down the difference between truth and honesty. people often say they want one, but they really want the other…
I am an omitter at times, so I just don’t tell everything. unless asked directly. then I will give you what you asked for. I live by ‘don’t ask questions you don’t want to know the answers to.’ so if I ask I want to know even if I don’t think I will like the response. I ask a lot of questions btw. I like to know things. I know that most people won’t volunteer shit unless you ask though–or maybe that’s just me? lol.
anyway, I read this and too thought about Jody in Baby Boy “I lie to you because I love you” many people consider sparing feelings a true act of love. and being brutally honest a “I don’t give a fuck about your feelings” thing. They say that love shouldn’t hurt but the truth of the matter is, feeling deceived, and betrayed hurts. I think lying to someone can bring about those feelings, whether intentional or not. Actually telling a bold faced lie is intentional. and that’s something I DON’T do.
I see your POV Max and I’d probably carry it the way you do–I’m okay with not knowing every little thing, especially with someone I’m not exclusive with, hell even with someone I’m exclusive with.
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I think that the guy that told you the truth respected you. He always gave you the choice to stay or go by telling you the truth even though it hurt, you knew exactly where you stood. Those other hoe’s ain’t know that!
Good write but I’d also state that I would set parameters on exactly how much I would divuldge to the SA…that can be a guilded trap.
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Great Article as usual!
I think that each situation is different and people need to work out their own logistics that will cater to the needs of both parties involved.
Personally I prefer the truth, because usually when people lie their pattern changes and I can sniff it out. So just be real and up front about what you want, what you need, and what you will tolerate in a relationship.
Love and lies do not mix in my opinion and I am definitely guilty of lying to those I have loved at some point.
peace
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But sometimes we lie to our partners because we want to spare them unnecessary hurt. And is that really such a crime?
What is “unnecessary hurt”? To the person that doesn’t believe in the use of vaccines (those people do exist), they are “unnecessary hurt.” While you might not be forth coming for your reasons for being out at 6am, its ok to tell the truth. The reasoning to lie to someone you care about to spare them is largely done for selfish reason and rarely selfless. Its so you don’t think you’re hurting him. Aren’t you assuming that he would be hurt? Why would he feel “some kind of way” even though the conditions have been stated and agreed upon? And if he does “feel some kind of way” he’ll get over it. If he uses that as reasoning to not pursue something then isn’t safe to assume that his reasoning for wanting such openness is dishonest?
With that said, that doesn’t obligate you to answer every question with specifics. I’ve made it a point to get used to telling someone “It’s none of your business” and let them come up with any explanation or scenario themselves. And your case, that would be the truth. Hence, you don’t provide what YOU feel is “unnecessary hurt” to someone and they can never use that honesty against you.
Ex:
Her: “Where were you?”
Me: “Oh, I was just hanging out.”
Her: “What was you doing?”
Me: “That’s none of your business.”
Her: “Why can’t you just be honest and tell me?”
Me: “I am being honest. It’s honestly none of your business.”
Result: She’s ‘hurt’ (more disappointed) b/c I didn’t tell her specifics. She got over it.
People will always find some reason to be “hurt.” Eff that. You’re entitled to the benefits of him and your agreements. I had to learn to not be so sensitive to the idea of someone I like being “hurt.” It’s ok to care, but not to the point where it’s unfair to yourself. People will press you. That’s just because they want to know, not b/c not telling them with “hurt” them.
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i’m a day late so i’ll just pick the response i agree with most ^^
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This is a really good post. I’ve battled with this my entire life. Honesty is not the best policy because most people, especially someone who is trying to be with you, can’t handle it. Like Sam says, I try to find a way to be truthful without all the extra honesty. I used to argue with my ex all the time because I would tell him things he didn’t need to know like that guy who keeps hitting on me or the ex that called on Sat night, etc. He didn’t need to know because I handled it and all it does is cause arguing in the relationship. I say tell him things as he needs to know and leave out any extras. I try to ask myself “Will any good come of this? Will something get solved?” If I can’t say yes then I try to deal with it myself and leave him out of it. Take it from a big mouth. It’s a work in progress but somethings are better left unsaid.
Also, if you two aren’t committed to each other, do not tell him about the extra men in your life. No matter how much he says he wants to know, don’t. Nothing good will come of it. This post was so nice I had to read it twice. lol
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“Should I be informing Mr. SA every time I get my back blown out if that’s what he wants or am I allowed to keep my private life private?”
First off, let me say Max that your sex life is just. DAMN!!!!! *IWannBeUWhenIGrowUp*
Okay now to the question at hand. HELL NO!!! don’t tell him anything keep your private life under wraps because let’s face it no matter what he is or isn’t to you at this point in time (BF/FAB/FwB/Exclusive/Non-Exclusive) no man wants to hear that another man is giving pumps to the same chick he is no matter how much they say they can handle it.
Honesty is NOT always the best policy, sometimes you need to sugar coat *ish* to keep things intact. Now me personally, I don’t like being lied to IHATE IT!!! and I strive to be honest 99.2999% of the time but in doing so it’s very important for the receiver to ask the RIGHT questions otherwise you can’t turnaround and blame me for lying/withholding anything, because I’m not a big talker, I’m a quiet kind of person.
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great post.
“What I always wondered then and still wonder now is which of us did my guy respect more? Me to whom he told the truth no matter how it might make me feel, or the side heaux who never knew the truth but never had to feel the pain that sometimes comes with it.”
i’m with the jody mentality. i might lie or omit the truth to women i care about. if i blatantly tell you the truth without regard for your feelings its probably because i didn’t care about your feelings in the first place.
on another note your dude is tripping. y’all not together. i would be like who i sleep with is my business. if a woman were to ask me and we weren’t together then i would give her the truth but i wouldn’t come right out and tell her. for what? once you’re in a committed relationship then you’re playing by a different set of rules.
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I love it when Max gets into the Twlight Zone of relationship issues…
For me it is a case by case basis with women…
Again, picking good women to mate with is my mantra…
So, if I want to pull off a open relationship or whatever kinda of relationship with a woman… I pick woman/women who are a good fit for that…
Once you get into a sticky situation, you have to unstick yourself from there… But I like to prevent sticky situations not cure them…
And when it comes to women, guys have to be completely selfish & look out for YOUR well-being FIRST, if you don’t women will be the death of you…
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Great post! I love your site and your writing! A little mad I’m late to the party but I’m here now. Anywho, chiiiile I don’t know. Me? I think lying to your partner to spare their feelings is the right road to take. People say they can handle things, until you give it to them like hol’ that and then they’re stuck. Mad at you. Lying is always bad. We all know that. But I’d rather be bad and make someone feel good, then good and make someone feel bad.
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